Mart O
3:00 Thu May 10
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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Ronald_antly 12:53 Thu May 10
He hasn't done it anywhere else either, not up front on his own, afaik. Until such time as someone offers a credible explanation for quite how we - with our ponderous midfield and pathetic defence - can play with this fellah up front on his own, I'll carry on thinking we can't.
There seem to quite a lot of football managers out there who don't believe he could play up front on his Tod for their teams either. Given his undoubted ability in front of goal, I'm amazed half the top teams in the PL haven't signed him, based on what I read on here.
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Ronald_antly
12:53 Thu May 10
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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Mart O wrote...
"Where ?"
On the field when playing for us.
"If he's so fucking great at the hardest thing to do in a business in which you can earn millions for doing it, how come he's a sub for us ? "
Good question, which I suggest you direct to David Moyes.
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MrSnoogans
2:59 Wed May 9
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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stewie griffin 8:31 Tue May 8
Every other major sport in the world is relies massively on player stats and data. I think it would be very naive of the club not to have a large data analyst team.
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MrSnoogans
2:57 Wed May 9
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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Ronald_antly 1:22 Wed May 9
I'd say its years of a scatter gun transfer approach which has left us with such a messed up squad it is difficult to have any style of play, let along play to Hernandes' strengths. Currently, when he starts it is a bit like Kevin Nolan in his latter years, like playing with 10 men but the 11th man turns up every now and then to score. 11 vs 10 is a tough way to play a football match.
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Mart O
2:40 Wed May 9
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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Hernandez "has demonstrated that when given the chance."
Where ? If he's so fucking great at the hardest thing to do in a business in which you can earn millions for doing it, how come he's a sub for us ?
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Alex V
1:42 Wed May 9
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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>>> You said you admire Carroll for coming back from injury. But he doesn't. He gets injured again.
The implication again being that injuries are 'his fault' - I have absolutely no idea if that is true. And say that his lifestyle did somewhat affect his chances of getting injured, it would only be by a degree and we have to accept players are not robots. Carroll has strengths and weaknesses like any other human.
My guess is his style of battering ram forward play has much more of a negative effect on his injury record than anything he does away from football. Big lumps who throw themselves around pick up injuries.
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Ronald_antly
1:22 Wed May 9
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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It absolutely BAFFLES me the way that some people heap shit on Hernandez.
We have a quality player who WILL score goals if played in the right setup. He has demonstrated that when given the chance.
When he's been left to scratch around on his own (e.g. at Shrewsbury) he is ineffective. It's like taking a Ferrari down to Sainsbury's to do your weekly shopping.
The only problem with Hernandez is David Moyes.
MOYES OUT!!
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Alex V
11:55 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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stewie griffin 8:31 Tue May 8
I don't think that's true. What each club does with the available data would be different. There's a myriad of ways of using it. It can be used to just back up whatever your existing scouting is, or to suggest targets to scout, or just provide an extra perspective on your targets - it doesn't have to replace what clubs already do.
You could say we have already been reliant on data under Sullivan. Anyone in Europe with a scoring record, we've been looking at. Cresswell was the top crosser in the championship, Jarvis in the prem when we bought him. Trouble is those are very simplistic indicators, and like you say in that case everyone with a laptop can see and understand them.
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After8
10:32 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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Alex V
You said you admire Carroll for coming back from injury. But he doesn't. He gets injured again.
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
8:36 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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TI - if examining their performances over the whole time they were here and the prices paid I don't think ANY of the players you mention are particularly horrible buys, with the possible exception of Hernandez.
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
8:34 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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SABERMETRICS!
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stewie griffin
8:31 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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To be honest I'd be happiest if we weren't using data. If it was any sort of barometer you'd just end up pursuing all the same people that every top flight club is pursuing and end up overpaying in both wages and fees to convince them to choose you. Not unlike we do now.
I'd prefer us to do something different rather than just aping what every one else does, only worse
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Alex V
8:00 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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Allardyce often talks up his advanced methods, but i've not seen any direct evidence of them ever.
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Mart O
7:58 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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Wouldn't be surprised if Fat Sam used data for performance monitoring of his own players but not transfer targets.
It might just get in the way of getting the best deals. For him.
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Alex V
7:57 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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After8 5:16 Tue May 8
Pep does know more about football than me. But I'm confused by your post - doesn't what he say actually back up my argument? I'm not 'deflecting attention onto Aguero' I'm saying that better players than Carroll have recieved similar criticism.
Let's face it if you're out injured for any period of time, you'll get criticised as lazy or unprofessional almost automatically by some of the support.
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gph
7:52 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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"West Ham are not using data that most clubs use as one of the inputs to player purchasing and player performance monitoring."
I thought Allardyce was all over this sort of thing.
Have we chucked out the baby with the Fat Sam bathwater?
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Mart O
7:49 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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"West Ham are not using data that most clubs use as one of the inputs to player purchasing and player performance monitoring."
I wasn't aware of this, but fuck me...
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Alex V
7:46 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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, 4:46 Tue May 8
The two views are entirely compatible - a player can lack drive and also receive unfair criticism. Similarly I can dislike Carroll as a player, and think we overpay him enormously, yet somewhat respect the way he comes back from injury and influences matches.
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gph
7:46 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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Everyone except the West Ham hierarchy knew what you got with Hernandez - a total specialist, who scores goals from within the box, and who is bloody good at it.
But he can't do anything else well, not even score goals from outside the box.
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Sir Alf
7:31 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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I do not think there are many players who are not trying. I do think there are quite a few who are simply not of the quality. The work rate for most has been acceptable with the exception of Kouyate, Hernandez, Fernandes and Mario in some games too although he will take a while to adjust to the physicality of the Premiership anyway.
The quality aspect also extends to technique (passing and control) and again Kouyate qualifies but is joined by Antonio, Reid , Byram , Collins and Cresswell. Obiang also had a few games where he struggled to pass to his own man but generally was ok.
Then there is the pace and physicality problem with Noble, Zab, Collins, even Cresswell lacking pace and Mario and Fernandes lacking the physical presence.
On top of all this or the underlying problem is a whole lack of professionalism and failure to modernise that Sullivan the owner is 100% responsible for.
I was told by a mate of a mate, who works for a top sports analytics company, that West Ham are not using data that most clubs use as one of the inputs to player purchasing and player performance monitoring. Sullivan admitted it by making his big announcement of a DoF and analytics team.
Sullivan has Barry Silkman and Willie Mackay recommending players. 1980s model.
No wonder we struggle and pay over the odds for players we don't need and players who do not perform.
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El Scorchio
7:06 Tue May 8
Re: 'Players getting away with murder for a long time'
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Aguero, Dicks etc. can afford to have the attitude to an extent because they almost always deliver on the pitch.
You can be an arsehole if that's the case and people will put up with it because you're so good. That was definitely the case with Payet here. Bilic gave him all sorts of special privilege and cut him slack that he wouldn't for other players. Because he delivered week in week out.
Two problems arise. If their level ever drops, (like Payet year 2) then you're giving special treatment to someone who doesn't merit it, and all the other players probably just get fed up with it and it wrecks the team. The player has to justify it to the manager and team mates by always being outstanding on the field- like Aguero.
Carroll has never shown himself to be worth having special privileges.
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